Loyalty or Justice?
November 21st, 2007
[Blogger: S.I.] Disclaimer: we like white people. Really. Read our “About” page and this whole post before you freak out.
A recent IM I had with a lawyer friend (names changed):
Bala224: man so that
indian attorney
who i told you about
with the white husband
named simmons
she was getting tooled today from all angles
by all these old white men
i could tell there was some hint of racism and sexism
i was thinking of intervening
but then i realized
wait a minute she married a white guy
you reap what you motherfucking sow
once you offer yourself on a silver platter to the enemy
don’t expect my help when they skewer, roast, and serve you
Hmm, wow. Yet another one of my boys who has sterling relations with the brown women in his life.
The conundrum I had in this scenario: did Bala224 do the right thing? He could have been loyal to the Indian side and come to her defense. There aren’t many of us in the legal profession, and the stronger the bond we form, the better it is for all. He did mention that at one point, she looked at him, almost asking for help. On the other hand, he felt that loyalty was a concept foreign to this femme. Her two part last name said it all, as far as he was concerned. And when one of your own has already blatantly rejected you, you’d have to be a lapdog to return to her side, tongue lolling. Right?
Instead, Bala224 chose his version of justice. As Kenny “The Jet” Smith has said on “The NBA on TNT” about why he shaved his head, “You gotta leave what’s gonna leave you.”
For the uninformed: Indian men, especially those who don’t live in communities with mountains of Indian women, often consider it an affront when remotely attractive (or better) Indian girls date white men. Sorry to any of our white readers, but it’s true. The way we see it, white guys have plenty of white girls to choose from in the US. Brown guys don’t have many brown women around, and it’s not like we naturally have all other kinds of women falling all over us. And even when we do, it’s not easy to establish an intercultural relationship, because unless you’re totally washed, being Indian is part of who we are, and no one should understand that better than an Indian girl. I’m one of the Indo guys who has dated outside the race, and I can attest, it still gets under my skin when a beautiful mud girl goes white (my girlfriend used to be one of these, but no longer! I play defense, kids.). So for someone like Bala224, it’s more than vexing.
But, like most situations, it’s not all brown and white. There are many shades of gray. Just because an Indo girl goes white, does it mean she’s a sellout? Well, I’ve met Indian girls who have said, “I don’t date Indian guys,” or “Indian guys just can’t be hot.” Net worth = 0. But there are some who have dated white guys and also Indian guys, and are open to both. Is that a different situation? Absolutely. Still infuriating? Depends how hot she is. And does it make her less Indian? That, too, depends on her, what she knows, how she feels about her roots, how connected she is, and how she represents. You don’t have to wear a bindi and kameez to be Indian. But mispronouncing your name (or mine) to fit in and rolling your eyes at all Indian guys belies any book knowledge you have.
And no, we don’t hate white guys. We all have friends who are white. It’s really not about the guy. What guy wouldn’t want to date an attractive girl, regardless of race? It may come out as if the antipathy is directed at the white male, but that’s rarely the case. And what about men of other races? My friends and I generally don’t care, because minorities are in the same boat. Keeping it dark is keeping it real (as real as you can without dating a desi). To be fair, if it were a brown girl living in India and dating a white guy who lived there too, I don’t think we’d care one iota.
Yeah, it’s complicated. What about for desi guys? Well, honestly, we don’t feel the rules apply (my girlfriend disagrees). Why? Because women can get men all the time. Men can’t get women so easily. So when an Indian guy does land a non-Indian girl, it’s cause for celebration. Meanwhile, it’s merely routine for brown women, a choice to be made day in and day out.
Did Bala224 know about this girl’s history? Her past, her knowledge, her feelings? Barely. All he really knew was “-Simmons.” I brought this up to him:
Bala224: well she married a white man named john simmons
i mean for the love of christ
she grew up in Chicago and Detroit
me: yeah but maybe she dated brown dudes and it just didn’t work out
Bala224: there are enough indos there to film gandhi
here’s the thing
i wouldn’t really care
but don’t look to me for help
if you’re going to lay with the white man
that’s the issue i have
marry whomever you want
but once you cut that chain
don’t look to it for support
go run to your white man
I didn’t realize she’d ‘cut the chain’ by marrying outside the race. Admittedly, it sucks, but that’s a little extreme even to me. Again, much depends on the circumstances. How much of the culture does she keep in her daily life? How involved does her husband get? If they have kids, how are they being raised? But for some, the wound is deeper, and given our experiences with the Indian women who are indeed worthless, it’s a difficult one to heal. What if she liked being Indian and part of the community, but she’d been shut out so many times by snotty Indian guys that eventually, she found herself seeking comfort with Simmons? Maybe she was trying to foster some cultural connection when Bala224 shut her out, essentially saying “your culture rejects you” again?
So, what was the right thing to do? Without knowing much about her personal history or views… Should Bala224 have defended her, solely on the basis of being Indian? Should he have not let race play into it at all (which is tough when you sense that she’s being grilled in part because she’s not white)? Or should he have kept it professional, which would have been only speaking up as he would have for a colleague? Maybe his lack of involvement, though perhaps motivated for the wrong reasons, was the right thing after all.
This is a nebulous and ongoing discussion, likely to change year after year as our place in the US and our relations with each other, and how we view members of the same race but opposite sex, evolve. For now, in conclusion, fair or not:
Bala224: every time i see her now
she gives me this look
as if i betrayed her
little does she know
she is the only one who is guilty of betrayal
the betrayal of her culture
her civilization
her country
and her good name
sullied by that colonial hyphen
me: yeah well that “hyphen”
penetrated
repeatedly
in its search for spices, gold, jewels, and cheap labor
Bala224: indigo
me: tea
Bala224: and mysore sandal soap
ah well
as we’ve said many times
this is a fruitless fight
we’ve already lost the war
the ethnic rage does boil in me
when i see her being attacked
but it’s mitigated by that other ethnic rage
the one that says “that’s what you get for marrying a fucking dub*”
i’ve said it before
i’ll say it again
do whatever you want
but accept the goddamned consequences
*Short for “W,” the first letter of “white.” See the full definition.
Tags: Assimilation Issues, Co-workers
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November 21st, 2007 at 5:40 pm
wow. it sounds terrible, but I would have done the same thing.
November 21st, 2007 at 5:55 pm
that convo is something else, lol
November 21st, 2007 at 6:44 pm
That’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever read. And I know it’s wrong, but it is how we feel. I think I would have helped her out though, even if she was a sellout. That’s for all brown peeps.
November 21st, 2007 at 7:00 pm
how is this fair, but desi girls are supposed to keep quiet when we see guys with white girls?
November 21st, 2007 at 10:12 pm
because it’s easier for Indian girls to get white guys than it is for Indian guys to get white girls. Indian girls have both Indian men and white men after them. they can make the choice. Indian guys don’t even have Indian women after them all the time, and rarely have white women go for them. as George Costanza said, Mathematically, we have to do it.
November 21st, 2007 at 11:51 pm
that is actually true. but really it’s just annoying when you see a guy you would go for, and he’s with a non-Indian girl. same as how guys feel.
November 22nd, 2007 at 12:36 am
LOL that is some raw sh*t
November 22nd, 2007 at 1:25 am
that is quite the conundrum. we could be going too far and alienating our own women through such actions. or are these women who are lost causes so to speak and wouldn’t go for brown men anyway? does it justify our excursions into foreign territories, or is that something we’d do regardless, and women should just deal with it because, as an earlier comment said, it’s just easier for girls? or should the dude have stood up for her, only because they both jump the same hurdles being indian and in the same industry in the same place? i’m thinking the bigger man would have, but getting a vibe that she’s being scrutinized because she’s indian vs. because she’s a woman, or because she has a weak case, or she’s not good, or has a reputation with one of the senior officials… it is not so open-and-shut. but had she been dating an indian guy, would you have said something? if the answer is yes, then you probably should have regardless…
November 22nd, 2007 at 2:02 am
hilariously bitter. i like it and have been there bala.
November 22nd, 2007 at 12:04 pm
let’s be honest - no one, girl or boy - would care about some interracial dating unless the ’sell out’ is hot. that’s the only time it really matters. which could mean that it’s only about race in as much as you think people you think are hot should come to you first because they are your race. which discounts what they think about you.
March 29th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Fascinating discussion. I’m an Anglo male (please forgive) living in the States with many friends from/livng in Andhra Pradesh (both male and female). I tend to agree with the Desi male perspective that Desi females can simply choose who they date; they are far more beautiful along many dimensions than the average caucasian female. Westerners have little culture compared to Indians and, therefore, are unconcerned with manners and appropriate conduct: Western males aggressively go after whatever and whoever they want with no thought of social mores. This puts more cultured Desi males at a disadvantage. I think there is a bright side though: Desi males are also more attractive than caucasian males along many dimensions (e.g., appearance, education, manners, etc.). Unfortunately, many human females–Desi females also?–react in seemingly instinctive ways to aggressive males: Their instincts tell them to mate with strong aggressive males, even though such males often make poor long-term companions. So, in the end, it seems Nature Wants Outcross Mating (both inter-racial and inter-cultural). At the same time, I know many caucasian women find Desi men strikingly handsome (e.g,, they love their skin color and facial bone structure, both of which are less Neanderthal than caucasians). They are just not used to Desi male interpersonal styles; their only experiences are with aggressive western males.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
@ John:
First off, despite the tone of our blog, it’s crazy to apologize for being white. No one has to apologize for the color of his skin, just for the ignorance in his head. And it sounds like you’re exempt from that.
Your point about aggression winning over females is well taken. While we have been content to see it as an issue of white preferred over brown, it also could have to do with aggression vs passivity (or at least, less aggression on the part of brown men).
However, I actually think you’re giving desi men a little too much credit. Like with any other group, we’re largely a bunch of idiots, with the upstanding and outstanding among us being few and far between. And as far as looks go, I can’t deliver a blanket statement saying one ethnicity of woman is more beautiful than another, etc., as that’s a matter of personal taste. I do think, however, that your idea of brown men being more desirable than Caucasian to anything but a select few is merely wishful thinking. Under Western standards of attractiveness, we are not. If it were true, this would likely be an entirely different kind of blog.
You have an interesting point with the aggression. Thanks for responding.
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:56 pm
“What about for desi guys? Well, honestly, we don’t feel the rules apply (my girlfriend disagrees). Why? Because women can get men all the time. Men can’t get women so easily.”
Move to New York, the ratio is ridiculously skewed in favor of men. If I had a dime for every time I saw a hot Indian guy with a white girlfriend…
May 29th, 2008 at 7:51 am
You fail to see the bright side of Priyas dating DubGees (White Guys). The trick is to date an Indian girl AFTER she’s been colonized by Brad, Brent, Brett or Brian. After being with a white guy, Indian girls adopt an amoral position on making the sexual desire and will be more likely to get down, whether it be with Muhammads, Michaels, Maliks or Matisyahus.
May 29th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Haha, turning lemons into lemonade.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Does it work in the reverse as well? Are desi men more likely to go down on us come suhaag raat after being with western women who will not tolerate just ek do teen in the bedroom and expect orgasm, mulitple orgasms even?Â
Will we desi women finally get some satisfaction????